Episode 30 | Another Day, Another Podcast

A full transcript of this episode is available below thanks to donations from our Patrons!

Coming up with real themes every week is hard.

00:00:00 - The Paleopals bring the excitement this week and we also have a recipe to share.

• Charlie's Tequila... sort of: In one tumbler glass put 3 ice cubes, 2 squeezed limes, 2 shots of tequila & a pour of soda water. Enjoy!

00:08:06 - If alcohol isn't your thing try a magnet to the brain for impaired judgment. Ryan explains why psychiatrists shouldn't write horror stories.

00:21:22 - If the Paleopals want to wear tights while recording that's a personal choice and frankly none of your business, but Trailer Trash Talk is everyone business and this week we're talking Robin Hood!

00:37:35 - Alligators don't breathe often but when they do they're kind of single minded about it. Patrick will make that make sense.

00:51:55 - PalePOW brings in a ringer for some added expertise. Welcome to Tom Katers of the awesome podcast Tom vs. The Flash to talk science and comics!

Music this week provided by:

• Another Day - MEST

• Another State of Mind - Green Day

• The Bare Necessities - Phil Harris and Bruce Reitherman

• Breathing - Yellowcard

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Episode 30: Another Day, Another Podcast

Ryan: Alright guys, so should we should we start the show now?

Patrick: Please?

Charlie: Yeah, I need to have a drink.

Patrick: No kidding.

Ryan: I've been drinking this whole time, you guys are doing it wrong.

Patrick: No, I'm just waiting for the proper time and place.

Ryan: Okay.

Charlie: I'm waiting for my own Pavlovian response. You'll get it soon enough. You know, I totally forgot to record my voice. Have I been sounding okay.

Ryan: Your phone has been giving me issues this entire time.

Patrick: That's unfortunate.

Ryan: Yeah, like a, I hear like, little (makes repeating mechanical sound) thing. I sent a message about it, awhile ago, I didn't know if you got that or not.

Charlie: It'll probably be okay. All right. Talk to you guys later.

Ryan: Bye Charlie.

Patrick: Later.

Music

Announcer: Hello, and welcome to Science sort of.

Ryan: You are listening to Science sort of Episode 30. Brought to you by absolutely no one other than the Paleo Pals. Charlie.

Charlie: Yeah, boy.

Ryan: Patrick.

Patrick: Hey, hey.

Ryan: And me, Ryan. This is the show that brings you the science, things that are sort of science and the things that wish they were science. Today's theme because we couldn't come up with a better one, is another day, another podcast.

Patrick: That's a great theme.

Ryan: It works. It's functional. Scientists are all about utility

Charlie: Sisyphean.

Ryan: But we're going to start this week's show off like we always do with the all important, all consuming, literally about consumption, question. What are you drinking? Patrick?

Patrick: Oh, have a have a great one here. We have a active Twitter follower and, and contributor via Twitter, whose handle is theblackestsheep. And she has encouraged us to check out this beer which is Black Sheep Ale.

Ryan: And how is it?

Patrick: Well, let's see here. It was difficult to open, I'll tell you that. So I've managed to do the, the old crack the rim around the top of the bottle trick.

Ryan: Did you, did you use the, your kangaroo thing because that’s, that thing is tricky.

Patrick: I did not. It's, it's a regular church key. Alright, here we go. Not bad at all. It's pretty good.

Ryan: What type of beer is it?

Patrick: Let's see. Black Sheep Ale, it claims it is crisp, dry and bittersweet. It also says it's the combination of five generations of brewing expertise, brewed at Blacksheep Brewing in Mash of North York Shire and nowhere else.

Ryan: Alright.

Patrick: And that's that's all the information I'm getting here.

Ryan: Cool.

Patrick: So.

Charlie: Sounds good.

Ryan: Yeah.

Patrick: It is. It is actually. It is actually really good.

Ryan: All right. Well, Charlie, what about you? What are you enjoying this evening?

Charlie: I have a tumbler with three ice cubes, two squeezed limes, two shots of Sauza Hornitos Anejo. And a pour of soda water.

Ryan: Said drink have a name?

Charlie: Tequila pop. I don’t know what it's called.

Laughter

Patrick: Tequila sort of.

Ryan: Perfect. Yes. The tequila sort of, all right. Yes.

Charlie: It’s delicious.

Ryan: Yes. I like that. I like the sound of that. You have to, you have to make it up some the next time we're all hanging out.

Charlie: It's a margarita without the sugar, it tastes like the ocean.

Ryan: Nice. Does it taste like a Noachian surface?

Charlie: Yeah. Salty.

Ryan: So lt yeah so Charlie is unwinding because he just had a big talk today that I went to. Charlie want to give him the, give him the cliff notes of your talk. I thought it was pretty interesting.

Charlie: Yeah, so, on the oldest surfaces of Mars, they are called Noachian surfaces because they show a lot of evidence of water flowing over them and so Noachian is in reference to Noah’s flood. We see, we detect a lot of clays, and people have invoked these clays as evidence of a warm, wet period early in Mars’ history. But I had this idea that maybe they were just formed underground and impact craters dug them up during impact cratering events. And so my talk explored some quantitative, analytical models describing impact excavation. And it showed that it can distribute these clays over Noachian surfaces in such a manner that they match what we actually see on Mars quite nicely. So, they have some validity.

Ryan: One of the greatest things I've ever seen at a talk happened during your talk today, Charlie. When you finish your talk, and it was, you know, are there any questions and Elise asked if it was possible that the clays were being destroyed by the impact heat of these, uh, you know, crater formation events. And with like, with no hesitation, Charlie goes, well, I didn't really have time to talk about it, but click and your next slide was that exact question.

Charlie: And it even said, nope.

Ryan: So it was just the smoothest answer to a scientific question I've ever seen.

Patrick: Wow, that’s... Did you plant that?

Charlie: Yeah, I paid that person in the audience. I slipped them two $20 bills.

5:00

Ryan: They were a plant.

Charlie: Yeah, no, not really. I just figured that was I, I predicted that that would be the first question I would ask. So...

Patrick: Using science, he was able to predict what questions would be asked.

Ryan: And as usual science worked. Yeah, that was awesome. And then and then you've mentioned your research a little bit before where the person, the final silicates, where the person worried about where the final silicates were coming from? And somebody also asked that exact question too, again, during your talk.

Charlie: Right. Yeah, this just addresses how they're distributed. Not how they're, not necessarily how they're formed. But, um, cool. What are you drinking Ryan?

Ryan: I am drinking. So, I had, I kind of didn't have a choice for my drink because I bought this bottle of rum and I've been wanting to talk about it. But we only record once a week and this rum has barely lasted two. So I decided to finish off the bottle this evening. And it is Zaya Grand Reserva, 12 Your old rum from Trinidad. It is a really nice rum. It's not quite as nice as that rum we had at the crate place Charlie.

Charlie: Okay.

Ryan: But it is, I mean, I've been drinking it with just a just a tumbler with two ice cubes that's been perfect.

Charlie: It’s in the same league though, maybe, that rum at crate place was an all star though.

Ryan: The rum we had at the crate place was aged 23 years. So, and this has only been aged 12 years and aging really mellows out the rum. It's similar to to that rum we had, it's got that same subtle sweetness at the start of it but it really mellows out and isn't so sweet that it's kind of sickly.

Charlie: Similar to humans too.

Ryan: Yeah, but it's, anyway it's just been a really nice bottle of rum and it's just super easy. Like, you know, some days beers perfect. Some days a cocktail is perfect and some days you don't want to fuss with either that you just want to pour something into a glass and sip on it for a while. Let it be cool and wonderful and sweet. And this rum, this rum achieved that quite nicely and it wasn't prohibitively expensive either. So I recommend it, Zaya. Zaya.

Patrick: Right on.

Ryan: Yeah. So with that out of the way we should talk about other things that get inhaled. No, that doesn't, does that work, is that a transition? What is this a podcast?

Patrick: Ah, how about other things that can affect your brain?

Ryan: Oh, really? I was going to your story first.

Patrick: Well, I'm just saying, that's a better transition. I don't care which order we do these in.

Ryan: Oh, yeah, you're right. That's a way better transition. Yeah.

Charlie: Other things that affect your brain and change your moral judgement.

Ryan: I was just going to say, speaking of things that disrupt moral reasoning.

Patrick: Yeah, there we go.

Ryan: Alright, that sounds...

Music

Ryan: My story this week is a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science by Leanne Young, from MIT in Cambridge. And the title of the story is “Disruption of the right temporal parietal junction with transcranial magnetic stimulation reduces the role of beliefs in moral judgments”.

Patrick: Explain.

Ryan: I will explain. I think that's that's necessary. So it using some functional MRI scanning also called fMRI, we can tell that when people are thinking about moral judgments, certain areas of their brain light up.

Patrick: Well, give us an example of a moral judgment.

Ryan: The example used in the study is you're at a chemical plant and your you're getting coffee. And they're, your friend asked for some sugar and you hand them this thing that says toxic written on it, but it could be sugar. And it's a moral judgment, if you believe it's sugar versus whether or not you believe it's a toxic poison, that’s gonna kill your friend.

Charlie: Man, these people should not be fiction writers. That's the boringest setup I’ve ever heard.

Ryan: Yeah, it was really kind of convoluted. But I mean, a moral judgment is, you know, do I push this guy in front of a train to save the lives of a couple hundred versus this one guy that I have to push front of a train, you know, which we've talked about before.

Patrick: Right.

Ryan: So when you're thinking about these different moral judgments, certain areas of your brain light up and the one that seems to be the most important is the temporal parietal junction, which they refer to in the paper as TPJ. And especially on the right side of the brain seems to be more important than the left side of the brain. And that lights up when people are thinking about their beliefs in a moral versus a non-moral context.

10:00

And, and there's not necessarily a strong causality between these two, but it's strong enough that we can assume that activity in this junction is somehow indicative of what's going on with moral reasoning. And what they did was they tested people on their interpretations of moral versus non moral situations, before and after, using what they call transcranial magnetic stimulation. Which basically means they put a very powerful magnet up against the person's skull, and were able to knock out the functioning of the right temporal parietal junction.

Charlie: That's just crazy.

Patrick: Magneto.

Ryan: Basically. Yes. So Magneto, you know, he's such a charismatic leader, probably because he's affecting the morals of all around him.

Patrick: Hmm. That makes a lot of sense, actually.

Charlie: I mean, so if you just wanted to make a platoon of heartless, vicious soldiers, you just put a crate of electromagnetic in all of their helmets?

Ryan: Um, well, yeah, I guess I mean, they didn't say how long, how long the effects seemed to last for? or How much umph, how much power was required. I mean, magnets, an electromagnet is one of those things that it takes a good amount of energy to start. But it can...

Patrick: And they're also really heavy.

Ryan: Yeah. So our soldiers are carrying enough weight. And we want them to be moral right, don't we? We don't want immoral soldier.

Charlie: I didn’t say our soldiers, I said a platoon of soldiers.

Ryan: Uhhuh.

Charlie: There are some people that may not want moral soldiers.

Ryan: I think brainwashing is probably a more effective way to get a ammoral soldiers, it seems to work pretty well nowadays.

Charlie: Video games...

Ryan: Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, a lot of times our discussions in this show tend to drift into things like determinism and you know, the role of science in culture and things like that. And this study just seemed to encapsulate a lot of those ideas. I mean, what is...

Charlie: Yeah, could you get off in a court case? Could you like...

Ryan: That’s what they talked about I mean, that's they recommend that as the next study, like, let's look at this and say, because so much of how a court ruling is determined is the judge trying to interpret the mental, mental activity of the person committing the crime. Like did the person believe they were committing a crime? Did they, did they know they were committing a crime? It's, it's subtle, and it's often very much up to the interpretation of the judiciary, whether or not the person was intentionally malicious in whatever crime. You know, manslaughter versus murder, that's a huge difference in the legal outcome of how your life can be affected by that ruling.

Charlie: Yeah, the punitive outcome, yeah.

Ryan: Exactly. So having a strong understanding of what's going on inside the brain, I mean, it's not like you could have evidence showing that your your right temporal parietal junction was knocked out while you were committing this horrible crime, but it does add this extra level of, you know, who knows what's going on to the head of the person they could have some weird form of epilepsy where randomly that just turns off, you know. And I'm just, I'm completely firing from the hip right now. But it just seems, it's almost shocking how people...

Charlie: Yeah, it's tricky. I guess for the sake of society, society, I'd still not want that person around.

Patrick: So there, to tie this discussion to one we had a couple of weeks ago, and to the current issue of Science, the magazine journal. There's recently a court case involving, basically, brain scans that showed that a person was likely a sociopath, or psychopath. And, you know, we talked about psychopaths a couple weeks ago on a show where I missed it, but I listened to you guys talk about it.

Ryan: Aww.

Patrick: And now we're, now we're discussing, you know, moral judgments and, and affecting the brain with some stimuli. And this article is basically talking about forensic science, basically situations, other than DNA, which seems to be pretty solid. Even, they, even call in to, fingerprint, even call into question fingerprint, fingerprints in certain situations in this, in this issue, but it's a whole issue. Well, not a whole issue on forensic science, but a good portion of the issue is devoted to forensic science. And their, the tone of the issue is that they're quite disturbed that, basically, you can call a, an expert witness to explain a brain scan and call it evidence that this person is actually a psychopath. And that will lead to them getting off when when these brain scans haven't been, essentially, vetted by a, a peer review group of scientists. And that's that's concerning to people who think about forensic science and whether it, and, it's always sort of been more in the law enforcement area and less so in the academic science area. and people are now starting to try to change that so that forensic science benefits from some of the peer review that traditional science always has.

15:11

Ryan: Yeah, and the legal system, legal system does a, I think, a decent job of figuring out which evidence works and which evidence doesn't. I know most states, contrary to popular belief, but in most states, a polygraph test, which is commonly referred to as a lie detector test, is not admissible in court.

Charlie: Right.

Ryan: Because it's, it's completely up to the interpretation of the person administering the test of whether or not the person's lying. It's not, it's not like the lie detector test says, you know, be true, be false.

Charlie: This probably, this triaxial graph, of like, how new the technology is, how sophisticated it is. If it's new and sophisticated than the lawyer’s gonna believe it unless this is the third axis, it has some sort of political context and then nobody's gonna believe it.

Ryan: Mmmhmmm, mhmm. But the, I mentioned a little bit, but just to get a little more in depth of what they're talking about. The scenario that these people were given was that Grace and her friend are taking a tour of a chemical plant. And when Grace goes over to the coffee machine to pour some coffee, Grace's friend asks for some sugar in hers. And the white powder by the coffee is just regular sugar, but is marked as toxic. So there's all these different outcomes. Well, actually, it's not necessarily sugar, but there's, there's what Grace believes, is in this thing she's handing to her friend versus the outcome. So there's like this weird kind of boxplot of neutral neutral negative, negative, where Grace may think the powder is sugar and she gives it to her friend and it is sugar so her friend is fine, which is a neutral neutral outcome versus Grace thinks the powdered sugar and, but it's actually toxic but her friend dies. So then, it's like, Grace wasn't trying to be hurtful. She just was being neglectful, I guess. But then there's the, there's the outcomes where Grace thinks the powder is toxic and it is sugar and her friend is fine, but Grace was actually trying to hurt her friend. And then there's the negative negative outcome where Grace thinks the powder is toxic, it is toxic and she kills her friend. What they basically asked the, the people in the study were, you know, in each of these four scenarios, was what grace did forbidden or permissible. You know, is it okay, or is it not okay. And what they found is that when people have been stimulated, magnetically they were more likely to say that it was okay. And it also seemed to not affect the the amount of time it took them to think about whether or not it would be okay. So it's, you know, there was a, there was a question of, you know, the brain is hampered with this magnetic stimulus on it, you know, they're not, this one area isn't functioning, so maybe it'll just take them longer to think about but they were responding in roughly the same amount of time but giving these wildly different answers if they'd had the magnetic stimulation or not.

Charlie: So does this article extrapolate, so this is the third person perspective you're describing here, where the subjects are looking at...

Ryan: Judging and another’s...

Charlie: Third person perspective scenario, does, do they extrapolate to the first person, that is a person judging their own...

Ryan: No, no, not not so much. I mean, they basically...

Charlie: Because that's what's interesting to me is not how they interpret something disconnected from them, but how they interpret their own judgments and whether or not that's affected under this magnetic stimulation.

Ryan: I think they assume that it would be a similar outcome that they just, it's you can't, you know, you wouldn't be able to get funding and approval for a study where you actually had people committing nonmoral acts.

Charlie: Of course, that's why I asked if the article extrapolated or not.

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Ah, they extrapolate a lot about the legal system and about kids with developmental disorders. Well, you could, you could even just ask the question differently. Not, not, did Kate do this, but, if you did this...

Ryan: Yeah. Right.

Patrick: What would you do if you picked up the sugar and saw it had toxic written on it?

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, obviously, I think this is fascinating. I think it's totally something that they should continue exploring. You know, I think we’ve talked about this a little bit before with the psychopathy issue, but the legal system as it exists right now is, is an issue and...

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if these people should be integrated in society. But as I said on a previous show, they should be recognized as having a deficiency, a disorder or disease, and seek treatment in such a manner that they're no longer a malevolent presence in society, but at least they're getting help and not just stuck in jail.

Ryan: Yeah, but I mean, it's just crazy to think that something like a magnet could make you a less moral person. Just to me, that's just mind boggling.

Patrick: Well, I mean, I...

Ryan: I mean, maybe it shouldn't be, I should, the mind is highly susceptible. I mean, the mind is, or the brain or the mind or however you want to refer to, I'm not a dualist. So I'm going to use brain and mind interchangeably, but the fact that it's so easy to fool the mind, fool the brain.

Patrick: Well, isn't it, I mean, if you think about it, the introduction of alcohol as a molecule into, you know, even the consumption of it isn't. I mean, that's just as mind boggling if you really think about it that way.

20:07

Ryan: Yeah.

Charlie: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, just how easy it is to disrupt how the brain normally functions. And when that is societally acceptable or not.

Patrick: One of them allows us to do a podcast, the other allows us to measure isotopes.

Ryan: We should, we should all stick magnets to our head for a show and see if that changes the outcome of the show. Maybe we’re like really mean during the Paleo POW segment. John wrote it and he's being a jerk as usual, John. Oh, but I'm trying to think of a transition.

Patrick: Yeah.

Charlie: Speaking of moral algebra, robbing from the rich and giving to the poor.

Ryan: Oh, Charlie, you're such a poet. Moral algebra. Balancing the equation.

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: I like it.

Music

Announcer: Hey y'all, it's Trailer Trash Talk.

Ryan: I like it. Well, Charlie, since you just transitioned us so beautifully, why don't you go ahead and introduce this week's trailer.

Charlie: This week we are discussing Robin Hood, the untold story of how the man became a legend.

Patrick: Is it really untold?

Ryan: Yeah, I was gonna say, wasn't there a movie with Kevin Costner? Ten years ago.

Patrick: And Errol Flynn.

Charlie: And Bryan Adams

Ryan: Moving on from the pedantic tagline.

Charlie: And, well, the legend call comes from the fact that it was directed by Ridley Scott who, as you may well know, directed Gladiator,

Ryan: And who’s starring in Robin Hood? Charlie?

Charlie: Gladiator. I mean Russell Crowe.

Ryan: Oh yes. You mean Maximus Decimus Meridius.

Charlie: Maximus Gladiator badass.

Ryan: What is his name? Maximus Decimus Meridius?

Patrick: I don't know.

Ryan: “Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next.” I love gladiator.

Patrick: So, instead of assaulting people with the telephone. He's using a bow and arrow.

Ryan: Yep, pretty much.

Charlie: And it's his face that's covered in blood this entire trailer.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, it looks like a typical Ridley Scott. War epic. I mean, it does look like Gladiator if Gladiator was in medieval England.

Patrick: So Russell Crowe if you'd haven't followed this?

Ryan: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how I feel about that casting.

Patrick: I don't like it.

Ryan: I think he's too.

Patrick: I think he's too, I mean, he's too beefy, basically.

Ryan: Yeah, he’s supposed to be lithe and young.

Patrick: Yes. Exactly.

Charlie: He’s supposed to be like an elf or something?

Patrick: Like why, why do you have somebody who could like go to war with a battle axe? What they don't need a bow and arrow like you got to give somebody who's like crafty and and shifty. they get the bow and arrow.

Ryan: Yeah. It’s so interesting. Um...

Charlie: Yeah, he has the same haircut as Gladiator.

Patrick: But that’s not my least favorite casting, I’ll say that.

Ryan: In this movie or, what's your least favorite casting?

Patrick: Cate Blanchett is Maid Marion. Gag.

Ryan: You're just not, not into that.

Patrick: I'm not a fan of Cate Blanchett in general. I can’t...

Charlie: I thought you're talking about Blue the Bear as Little John.

Ryan: Back to the cartoon. Listen, listen Little John was just trying to get people the bare necessities Charlie.

Patrick: Kevin Duran...

Charlie: I honestly kinda like that casting.

Ryan: The simple, bare necessities so they can forget about their worries and their strife for one day of their miserable peasant lives.

Charlie: So bear can rest at ease.

Patrick: Yes.

Ryan: Yes, but like in the Kevin Costner movie, Robin Hood is a noble. He's a nobleman who decides, he's like Zorro, basically. He's a nobleman who decides that the situation in England is unfair to the, to the lower class and he's going to redistribute the wealth. But in this, they make also they say at one point, Russell Crowe is just a common archer.

Patrick: Yeah, but the whole I don't know if you watch trailer 2 or not, but that certainly made it seem like he came from some position.

Ryan: But the, well, trailer 2 is the one where it has the line where it says we're just “common archers Rob”.

Patrick: Well, I mean, come on, look they’re like, they were putting. I don't know exactly what he was, but his father certainly seemed like he was someone of note.

Ryan: We shall see.

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Because I like the idea of the nobleman who realizes he's needs to give back. I mean, that's the Zorro, Batman Robin Hood thing.

25:00

Patrick: Yeah, but I don't. I mean, the Kevin Costner Robin Hood was actually kind of a good movie. But as far as like making sense in, in medieval times, it really sort of fell short, I think.

Ryan: What do you mean?

Patrick: Um, well, there's, ah, let’s see, I'm gonna have trouble recalling things off the cuff. But I remember after having taking a couple of medieval, medieval studies classes in college, watching that movie and thinking that things are a little bit on the silly side several times.

Ryan: I mean, Kevin Costner doesn't even use a British accent.

Patrick: As made famous in Men in Tights.

Ryan: Yeah. Indeed, well, the thing, you know, one thing of it. I love the Robin Hood story, personally.

Patrick: Yeah, it's a great story.

Ryan: I mean, just the same way I love the Zorro, I love the Batman story. I see a lot of parallels there. And I just, this looks like you know, I know you're a fan of the war epic Patrick and this looks right up that alley.

Patrick: I, you know, I like the war epic, but this is not the time to pull out the war epic card. This is not Braveheart. This is Robin Hood. So...

Charlie: That's what was confusing to me. There seemed to be this discontinuity because I am familiar with the Robin Hood story, but the trailer looked. Yeah, it did look like Braveheart. Or some sort of epic battle.

Ryan: I see that, I see that. But, well, and see, I also, I'm an archer. So I've been...

Charlie: You got skills.

Ryan: Did I just, that yeah, I mean, this is not something I talk about a lot, because it's kind of weird, but I've been doing archery since I was like 15 so...

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, I have a bow at home in West Virginia. Because I didn't see any need to have it out here in California. And whenever I'm home, I spend at least a day or two out...

Charlie: Are you kidding me, you are in Bigfoot country.

Ryan: It'd be wrong to shoot a Bigfoot Charlie.

Patrick: They've got to be endangered.

Ryan: Well, not only are they endangered but if, ah, and we'll talk about this later but if you believe the guy who runs the Bigfoot museum they have DNA that's the same as humans, so it'd be tantamount to murder.

Patrick: Basically. In a court of law anyway. That's the only, apparently, forensic science would get correct.

Ryan: If you put a magnet up to my head I'd shoot a Bigfoot.

Charlie: Alright, I feel bad about what I said then.

Ryan: But the point is, I have a soft spot for archery it's you know, even growing up West Virginia, I was never a hunter but I did enjoy archery and shooting my bow and...

Patrick: And apparently that's where, so you know, we we flip a bird here in the good ol US of A, but in in England, you could, you could flip a bird or you could give sort of this...

Ryan: The two finger salute.

Patrick: Yeah, the two finger thing that it's apparently dates back to having fantastic English archers. Which, so that is basically the two fingers used to pull the bowstring with. So when you do that especially to the French. It means like we're gonna shoot you down.

Ryan: So Warren Ellis did a comic two years ago called Crecy. It's a, it's a short it's called like a graphic novella. He kind of invented this this style of you know, an 80 page very slim format a graphic novel called Crecy and it's all about this battle that was happening towards the end of the Hundred Years War between France and England.

Patrick: That's exactly when this sort of happened.

Ryan: Fantastic book. The book, the book basically follows a common archer like sir Robin here and...

Patrick: Or just Robin if, he’s not sir, it was just common.

Ryan: He’ll probably get knighted by the end of the movie.

Patrick: Okay.

Ryan: I’m calling it. Um, but, but it follows this archer and in the comic, the narrative of the story is told from the perspective of this archer and the archer is aware, seemingly, that there are people in the future reading about his life and his, his job as an archer. So he's explaining things he’s saying, like, this is why we do this. And he's very, very specific to point out like, you know, you may think that we're primitive and stupid. We're not we just didn't have as much accumulated knowledge previously, kind of to play off the Sir Isaac Newton quote of “I've seen farther it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants” and he's reversing that and saying like, we're not dumb, just because we're in the Middle Ages, we just didn't have as much available knowledge. So here's why we did things the way we did. And this is the logic of the time. It's a fantastic piece of historical fiction, but you also learn a ton. And the book basically ends with him holding up his two fingers and his logic is that the French, it's an insult to the French because it's saying I can kill you with just these two fingers from 200 yards away.

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Because the English were the ones that figured out the longbow, and the French were using short bows or crossbows so they just didn't have the range that the English longbow had. I mean, how hard is to figure out just to make the bow bigger, but...

Patrick: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: The French couldn't figure it out. So they lost.

30:00

Patrick: Well, there you go. I think that's quite similar stories we've arrived at.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, but the point is archery is awesome. I, I'm gonna see this movie probably in the theater because I like Robin Hood.

Patrick: Yeah, I do too. That's the only reason I'm, well you know, I would like this movie probably if it were called something else. I'm sad that they turned sort of Robin Hood into a general leading this army.

Ryan: We’ll see, it could work.

Patrick: Maybe. And Cate Blanchett as maid Marion seems like a horrible cast to me. But whatever.

Ryan: I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt till I see it. I guess.

Patrick: So I'll go first. I'm, I'm a weak long on this one.

Ryan: Weak long. All right, Charlie.

Charlie: I'm a weak long too. I mean, I think I'll go see this in a theater. It looks like the kind of movie that would be very entertaining in a theater. And I do like the Robin Hood story. And this is kind of a snooty thing to talk about, I suppose, but I like the, the cinematography in the trailer. They're playing a lot with like wide aperture lenses and it just looked like a very engrossing way of filming the movie. And I thought that'd be kind of a surreal way to watch the Robin Hood story unfold in the same manner that Gladiator was filmed.

Ryan: Yeah, well, and, Gladiator was gorgeous to watch.

Patrick: Yeah.

Charlie: Yeah, I guess that's that. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say, is that it looks like this movie's filmed in a very picturesque manner.

Ryan: And, and I love these kind of movies that, you know, try to like tell we're going to tell the true story, the gritty, actual Robin Hood story, Robin Hood wasn't real. Like, I love the story as much as the next guy, but it's just a myth.

Patrick: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess. I don't know that. I don't know that for sure. But...

Ryan: I mean, from what I've read the most, the one aspect of the Robin Hood story that, that historians seem to agree on is that it might have actually been propaganda for garment manufacturers, because he was called Robin Longshanks and he wore a red hood and red was like, fashionable at the time. And it's all, it was basically just garment manufacturers trying to...

Charlie: It was viral, viral advertising.

Ryan: Back in a day. Yeah. Created, create a myth of a guy who wore your your clothing and then sell it.

Patrick: Awesome.

Charlie: It always looked like he was wearing Ray Bans too.

Ryan: But I'll go long on this. It looks fun. I'll see it, whatever. I guess I'll go weak long just to be with the group.

Patrick: Oh, nice.

Charlie: Weak plus weak plus weak equals a stiff drink.

Ryan: Yeah, that sounds good to me.

Patrick: So I wanted to, in Trailer Trash Talk, talking a little bit about the Science sort of league, which I had been, I hadn't spent enough time, I guess, on the on the Science sort of League. But it's actually starting to grow, quite a bit. So we're now sitting at 80 members and um...

Ryan: Really?

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Man.

Patrick: And ReJinx, so, ReJinx is quite the, so, there, actually turns out, there's a, there's a whole comment section that can, that goes on in the, in the in the Science sort of League and it's actually kind of active.

Ryan: I'm sorry, everybody we didn't know. Oh wow look at all this!

Patrick: And so ReJinx has been leading the league for quite a while and he points this out often in, in the, in the comments section and he, and he's a little miffed that we don't give him more props. So here's your, your props ReJinx, you’ve been leading for a while. You're up 453% since you started and you joined in January of 2010. So it's not like you were, have been doing this for a long time. So you legitimately, I think, possibly found this website through our show and have mastered the art of trading movie stocks. So ReJinx is leading the league and it turns out that the Science sort of League is the third largest league on the Hollywood Stock Exchange.

Ryan: Heck yeah. How big do we have to get to be the biggest?

Patrick: Around 150 people.

Ryan: Let's do it! We’ve got that many listeners.

Patrick: So, and the people, you know how we always talk about how Trailer Trash Talk is so divisive. People sort of love it and people hate it. Well the people who love it, are, seem to be congregating on, you know, logically so, they're congregating on the Hollywood Stock Exchange site. So they're, they are, they have their own conversations about, about what, how they think movies are going to do on the exchange...

Ryan: Hey, look at this! Look at this...

Patrick: ...it’s pretty fascinating

Ryan: DCats asked what do you guys think of the new Robin Hood movie, long or short?

Ryan: Well, DCats.

Charlie: Nice!

Ryan: Here we go, buddy.

Patrick: Yeah. Although I have a feeling they probably spend more time looking at what the amount it’s trading at now then we do. We just say whether we like the trailer or not.

Charlie: Yeah, we just kind of wing it blindly.

Ryan: We, we you know, we're honest about that being our motivations.

35:01

Patrick: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so, we're certainly, we are currently sitting in 13th place.

Ryan: Of our own league. I'm not that high at all. I'm 67th in this league.

Charlie: We didn't even make the batting order.

Patrick: Right. And that's a recent, actually, we were in the top 10 for a long time and recently we've dropped a couple, we dropped not only out of the top 10, but we're, we're losing ground quickly so some people that are taking this pretty seriously are getting, are getting pretty good.

Ryan: Man. ReJinx is gonna be hard to, hard to take on.

Patrick: Oh, yeah, man. That's the, yeah, he's, he's...

Ryan: Zeplin77 got his work cut out for him.

Patrick: Yes, he does. Malcatraz, Malcatraz is actually a prominent, a prominent member of the Paleo Posse...

Ryan: Yeah.

Patrick: ...Not only on...

Ryan: He does the whole, the Podcast Alley.

Patrick: Yep.

Ryan: Which it’s a new month. Go check out Podcast Alley.

Patrick: Maybe vote for us if you can find it in your heart to take a few minutes out of your day.

Ryan: I mean, I wouldn't tell you to go to Podcast Alley otherwise. That's that's beside the point.

Patrick: Unless you were looking for other podcasts to listen to.

Ryan: Like there are other podcasts worth listening to.

Patrick: Well, speaking of, I don't know, seeing things and only one seeing only one side of things. I don't know, this is this is a tough transition we tried before and it's not easy.

Ryan: To transition what, out of Trailer Trash Talk?

Patrick: Into this alligator story.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, this alligator story is a disaster. Let's not talk about it. If there's no good transition, it's probably not gonna be a very good story right?

Patrick: Right.

Ryan: Is that logical? Charlie, what do you got for us? You had you had the transition magic earlier this show.

Charlie: Uh, nothin’. Speaking of....

Patrick: Well, let's all take a deep breath and move on to our next science story. Eh, no?

Ryan: I was, Charlie said speaking of and it trailed off so I was going to wait for him to finish.

Charlie: I got nothing.

Ryan: No, I like “let's take a deep breath and move on”.

Patrick: Okay.

Ryan: We got a little, we got a little into that Robin Hood talk so...

Patrick: Yeah we did.

Music

Ryan: Okay, so Patrick, will you tell us about your story this week?

Patrick: Um, yeah, let me call it up here. So my story is called “Unidirectional airflow in the lungs of alligators” and it's by CG Farmer and Kent Sanders. And this was a Science story from a couple weeks back. I was a little late reading Science.

Ryan: You know, I'm not sure many of our listeners peruse Science regularly, so I think it's a news to them.

Patrick: Okay.

Ryan: And if it’s not, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you don't read Science regularly, just, I assume most people don't read, I don't pursue Science regularly. So that's all. Just covering my bases.

Patrick: Well, maybe you should.

Ryan: You do it for me.

Patrick: Yeah, that’s right. Ah, so this story, so if you don't know this, alligators, crocodiles, and birds are each other's closest living relatives, which...

Ryan: Alligators, crocodiles and birds.

Patrick: So, alligators plus crocodiles, is a group crocodilians...

Ryan: Okay.

Patrick: ...and birds are each other's closest living relative.

Ryan: Living.

Patrick: So... Right. So dinosaurs...

Charlie: That’s bad company for the birds.

Ryan: Is it? alligators and crocodiles are awesome.

Charlie: Ah, You wouldn't want to invite them over for Thanksgiving though.

Ryan: Are you kidding me? If, if you just fed them the month before they wouldn't even eat anything. They would just chill, hangout and tell cool stories about being an alligator.

Charlie: Is that why Henry always just chills it the California Academy of Sciences?

Ryan: Yeah, he's just whatever. He's just doing his thing, man. Well, it's night, we always go at night, to be fair.

Charlie: Yeah.

Ryan: So he's probably tired. He’s had a long day of chillin’.

Charlie: So Patrick, how does Henry breath? He's a, he's an albino alligator.

Ryan: Same way every alligator breathes.

Patrick: I guess so, yeah. So this, so the interesting thing about, well, I'll start with birds.

Ryan: That’s moving, that’s starting in the wrong spot, birds came later.

Patrick: Well, we're going to work backwards. So birds have a really interesting respiratory system. And it's, it's assumed that they have this crazy respiratory system because it takes lots of oxygen to feed your muscles to fly. Right you have a high metabolism, it takes a lot of energy to fly.

40:00

You need to be able to breathe really efficiently. So, basically they have a, more or less, I mean essentially it is a unidirectional flow of air. So you can think of, instead of the lungs being a blind sack the way ours are, we breathe in the air...

Ryan: Did you say a blind sack.

Patrick: Yeah. So, so, you know, a sack with only one end.

Ryan: Okay.

Patrick: You only get in and out one one direction. Um...

Ryan: Like a cul-de-sac?

Patrick: I mean, that's, that's spelled differently.

Charlie: Like a balloon.

Patrick: Like a balloon. So, air comes into a mammals lungs and the oxygen exchanges to the blood and we get carbon dioxide back and we exhale. And so actually, actually, you're actually exhaling a lot of good oxygen with that waste carbon dioxide.

Ryan: Stupid lungs.

Patrick: Yeah. And when you take the next breath in, you're probably also still have some leftover waste carbon dioxide sitting around in there with your new breath full of oxygen, which is wasteful as well.

Ryan: That sounds very inefficient.

Patrick: Right. So birds, basically, instead of going out the same way it came in, it goes out another into another basically, balloon, right? And so, so let's say the first breath a bird ever took, the air would come into the lungs, it would shunt out into another balloon when they exhaled. So when they exhale for the very first time, no air actually comes out of the bird. It just goes into another balloon. And when they inhale again, that air moves again to another balloon, the old air moves to another balloon and when they exhale, again, I think, the air finally leaves

Ryan: Well, where does it go? What does it leave out of.

Patrick: So it comes in and goes out through, like the same way we do, like through the, through the trachea or the, um...

Ryan: But this way sounds even less efficient.

Patrick: No, it's not because the, all the ah...

Ryan: Prove it Wheatley.

Patrick: Every, so everything all the oxygen that comes in and exchanges and then gives you waste carbon dioxide that gets pushed out another, another way instead of going out the same way that your new oxygen is going to come in. No, you're not buying it?

Ryan: I’m just not sure I can visualize it.

Patrick: Um it's, it's pretty tricky. So, so, but if you think of their lungs sort of like a tube, and so the breath, when, as it comes in, is exchanging and oxygen is going to the blood and carbon dioxide is going to that air that keeps flowing through the lung and winds up in another chamber that is not exchanging, right. So all the exchange has already taken place and they can get, they can then shunt that air out and away and bring in new air to the, through the lungs. So the the old air never, doesn't wind up sitting in the lungs the way it does in a mammal.

Ryan: Gotcha. So you can't knock the wind out of a bird.

Patrick: I don't, I don't know.

Ryan: If I punched a bird in the chest plate.

Patrick: Right?

Ryan: Like an ostrich or something.

Patrick: I guess, I guess you still could, you could still, like, move all the, you probably still can...

Ryan: So you're saying you support the punching of ostriches.

Charlie: I guess...

Patrick: When it’s necessary.

Charlie: I'm starting to, I'm starting to picture it now. The word unidirectional in the article is confusing to me. Because I think of air passing through, you know, the trachea of myself rather...

Patrick: Yeah, you think of other mammals. But it’s unidirectional like coming out the anus right. It's just gonna go...

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, I think of it. I think of a jet engine. That's what I thought of, but I think, is that too...

Patrick: Right. It's more convoluted than that but it’s...

Charlie: It’s unidirectional in the sense that clean air always goes to the same place and, but, dirty or used air consumed air doesn't come out of that, that place.

Patrick: Right. So it's basically the way that like, the difference, I guess it's not like a full four chambered heart, you know, like where the oxygenated and deoxygenated blood never mix. But it's more like a three chambered heart that the, coincidentally, crocodiles and other reptiles have, whereby you can, so the only place this air is mixing is just in the esophagus. Or not the esophagus but the trachea I guess, and the windpipe and not also in the lungs.

Charlie: Exactly. Okay, get it. I get it.

Patrick: And so you're still bringing air, ultimately, the same tube brings in air and exhales air. But the, there's more room to push old air around in a bird so that they don't have to meet as often. Whereas in a mammal, it's just one sac, one balloon.

45:00

Ryan: Well, what does this have to do with crocodiles Patrick?

Patrick: Well, for a long time, we thought that sort of evolved some, at some point in dinosaurs.

Ryan: We thought that that was a necessary adaptation for flight just because you need more oxygenation of the muscle tissue.

Patrick: Right. And it turns out that alligators have some variant of this and they don't completely understand how it works. So basically, they had, they used, basically smoky air, so it filled air in, I guess, like a CT machine or something, some kind of, some kind of scanning machine where and then they had like these dead crocodiles or dead alligators and they were either forcing air into the lungs or expanding their, sort of, chest cavities and negatively using negative pressure to draw this filled air into the lungs. And I guess they could, they could image this soot filled air inside of them because there's, there's something there. And they watch, they watch the soot move around in the lungs. And it turns out, it doesn't just go, when they, when they compress the chest back, it didn't all just flow straight back out the mouth, it went somewhere else first, back around into the trachea and out on a subsequent expansion and compression, which shows that they have unidirectional flow similar to what birds have.

Charlie: Or valet parking.

Patrick: Something like that.

Ryan: Hmmmmm.

Patrick: And they don't know why exactly, alligators would have this. And they also thought it was essentially impossible for them to have this because reptiles, lots of reptiles breathe through ah, let me get this right, hepatic piston. So basically that, we have a diaphragm muscle... So let me start with amphibians. Amphibians have to force air into their lungs. So when you see a frog do that, like expand its throat...

Ryan: Wait, wait, wait, this is one of the most impressive stuff words that I know. So amphibians use a buccopharyngeal pump.

Patrick: Yes.

Ryan: Huraaay! Sorry, I'm done.

Patrick: Ah, so they just basically take a mouthful of air and push it down into their lungs. So they have to use positive pressure to fill their lungs with air. Mammals and reptiles use, typically use negative pressure where we just expand our chest cavity and just and basically create a vacuum and so air rushes in to fill that vacuum. And we, and we use, mammals use a diaphragm muscle and reptiles use a hepatic pump so it's connected to their liver, basically. So they're basically, I don't understand the details of this but essentially, they're moving their liver in order to expand their chest cavity. And it was thought that you probably couldn't have unidirectional airflow if you, if you're using a hepatic piston. But turns out that's apparently not the case.

Ryan: Hmmm.

Patrick: So it occurred to me that maybe This would be useful if you are diving and holding your breath for a long time. And maybe that's why alligators have this ability. Because it turns out that when you take a deep breath and hold it, the um, that feeling you get that you, you, you can't hold your breath any longer is not your need for oxygen. It's too much carbon dioxide. So if you could move that carbon dioxide somewhere else, maybe you would not feel that horrible...

Charlie: Poison.

Patrick: ...pressure.

Patrick: Yeah. So if you could shunt that away and hold it in some kind of chamber that wasn't exchanging with your blood, maybe that would improve things. I don't know that. But that's a, and I don't, and there's some problems with that theory. But it seems like maybe something along those lines might be a reason for an animal that is aquatic and holds its breath for a long time to have a system like this. It's just a guess.

Ryan: Interesting.

Patrick: I think that's about all I had to say about it.

Ryan: How long can alligators and crocodiles hold their breath for underwater?

Patrick: I really, I really don't know the answer to that. Sounds like it's time for an experiment. What's that alligators name at the Cal Academy.

Charlie: Henry.

Ryan: Guess we gotta go hold him under.

Charlie: He was underwater the last time we were there.

Ryan: That’s true, he was just chillin’.

Charlie: He did not look stressed about it at all.

Ryan: He wasn't fighting for air.

Charlie: Ah, the turtle next to him was doing weird things, but he was just...

Ryan: Yeah, well snapping turtles freak me out more than alligators.

Charlie: Yeah.

Ryan: I feel like I can take an alligator. I’ve seen Steve Irwin do it enough times. Yeah. I checked, Patrick. We're number two. We're not number three. We're number two biggest league in the Hollywood Stock Exchange.

Patrick: That's funny because I checked before we started and we were still number three.

Ryan: Really? The next biggest ones only 63 people.

Patrick: We’re not, well then maybe one of the upper leagues dissolved or something because we were number three not, not an hour ago.

50:05

Ryan: Well you know what’s crazy is, so, we created our league on what's eighth month, is that August, August 30 2009. The league that's beating us was created on August 29, so the day before. And number three league the SHX Veterans was created on August 28, 2009.

Patrick: That’s crazy.

Ryan: And number four league was September 1, 2009. So it's, apparently if you started a league anytime at the end of August beginning of September you're now dominating Hollywood Stock Exchange. Is that like the first couple of days you could start a league? What's going on there?

Patrick: No, I have no idea. No, I have no clue. Cuz no, I was involved in the Hollywood Stock Exchange years before we started this podcast and we had, I had a league with some friends so...

Ryan: Crazy.

Patrick: It’s been around.

Ryan: Well, I'm very proud of the Paleo Posse for bringing us to that level.

Patrick: Yeah, that lofty position.

Ryan: I know. That's pretty cool. It’s nice to know, it's nice to know that when the Paleo Posse puts their mind to it, we could just take over websites.

Patrick: Yeah, unless there's a been a magnet held to our brains.

Ryan: But then we care even less about taking over the website.

Patrick: Yeah, we do it even more ruthlessly.

Ryan: Indeed, indeed, indeed.

Patrick: Alright, well with that, is it time for the Paleo POW.

Ryan: Yeah, we should talk about the other antics that the Paleo Posse are getting up to with our segment in need of intro music The Paleo POW.

Music

Ryan: Okay, so this week on the Paleo POW segment, we're going to start things off with a voicemail from Bailey from Davis. So let's go ahead listen to that.

Bailey: “Hi, this is Bailey from Davis, California, and I have a question for you. What comic series do you think is the most scientific and which one most wants to be scientific? Thanks. I love your show. Bye.”

Ryan: Alright, so Bailey from Davis wants to know about science and comics. And I know Charlie reads comics sometimes, Patrick will read them if I shove them in his hand. But I'm pretty much the main comic guy of the group, I think, and that doesn't seem fair, I don't want to dominate the discussion. But I will bring in someone else to help dominate it with me.

Patrick: That's more equitable.

Ryan: Yeah, I'm not I'm not adverse to that. And so now I will be bringing in Mr. Thomas Katers.

Tom: Hello.

Ryan: Hello, Tom.

Patrick: Wow, nice radio voice Tom.

Tom: Hello.

Ryan: Tom is a pro, he's a professional podcaster.

Tom: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't get paid as much as I would like but.

Ryan: Yeah, I guess that would be the better definition.

Tom: That would be the more, the better, the better definition. I have a lot of practice with a radio voice.

Ryan: Tom does the podcast Tom versus the Flash where I guess you want to give them the elevator pitch of what that show is Tom?

Tom: Oh, the elevator pitch. Oh, haha, how Hollywood. Do the Hollywood pitch. Yeah, I just, I read old Flash comics and I talk about them, like a 12 to 15 minutes, and a shot just about old comic books. Because they're, they're sort of ridiculous. And funny.

Ryan: That is the, that is the show that I try and tell people about and promote it. I get the weirdest looks. I'm like no, this guy just read comics and talks about it. Like, well, can you see the comic book?

Tom: It’s not boring. It's not boring.

Ryan: I know it's not. It's not. Yes.

Tom: I try...

Patrick: You got the voice for it too. So, yeah, why not check that out?

Ryan: It's probably better than if I read the comics myself. And some of them you can't even get anymore. So you're really disseminating the knowledge.

Tom: It’s a service, it's, I’m providing a service. Or it could be a curse to the people who write the comic books now because there are people who are really way more well versed about, like, minutia than they ever should have been. It’s ... now...

Ryan: So Carmine Infantino has people at his con table now complaining about stuff that nobody's complained about in the past.

Tom: Yeah or he’s I don't even remember it. I don't remember inventing that.

Ryan: Well, the reason I thought you would be really good to come on and talk about the science of old comics is the Flash comics actually used to have “Flash Facts”, right?

Tom: Yes. Yeah. Which really influenced kids. So they always had, like a page of stuff like, “oh, this is, if you could run this fast this is how long it would take for you to run towards Jupiter” or, you know, like, “here's the color spectrum”. So there was always stuff like that inside of them.

55:08

Ryan: And you and I chatted about this a little bit, but it seems like that's probably the best example of actually using science in comics. And they're all...

Tom: Yeah, yeah, because it's aimed at kids. It's kind of, it's like, grade school science level. But it's still like actual science sort of, I mean, you get to the point where...

Ryan: Actual science sort of is perfect because our show is Science sort of.

Patrick: We love that.

Tom: Science sort of, well, the science part is you know, there is a color spectrum and you know, you can remember by Roy G Biv. The sort of part would be a guy who's got goggles that shoot, you know, the individual colors out. So you get to a certain point with the stories, and then they go off into the part that makes them interesting to little kids. But they start off at sort of elementary science level type stories.

Ryan: Mmmhmmm, mmmhmmm.

Tom: Whereas nowadays, because they have to service a more, older crowd, the focus is more on the story. So the, you know, be like, ah here is, like I was saying earlier, here's nanobots, and they do this.

Ryan: Right.

Tom: And you know, it's kind of different because it's all to get to a point to tell a certain story just because the audience is older. And while the older comics really had elementary science in it.

Ryan: Yeah, I've been, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, because it seems like things like nanobots and repulsor rays and things like that. It's just science magic. It's just science for the purpose of telling the story, but doesn't actually make logical sense.

Tom: Well, they don't have time anymore. Because in the old stories, they're more like puzzles, as opposed to now where now it's like a TV show. You know, back in old flash comic, they came up with the cover first. So you'd have the cover and you'd be like, oh, now we have to make a story that somehow the flash turns into a puppet. So you have to come up with this very intricate, well, like intricate story that has all these parts to it to get to that point. And inside of that, you know, obviously the, being turned into a puppet is not actual science, that I know of. Unless the Soviet, now we've lost knowledge of that, but they have to, they have to solve the puzzle, sort of. So there's way more time creating these sort of weird situations that people were in. And a lot of the inspiration for it came from the science of the time, you know, the 60s and the race to the moon and stuff like that.

Ryan: Yeah, that's another huge thing to mention is that, you know, a lot of the, there was a revival in comics in the late 50s and early 60s, after the Comics Code Authority kind of ruined things after World War Two. And this is a bit of comics history. But when when comics made their comeback in the 60s, a lot of these characters who, before World War Two, had been magic based characters, like Hawkman was an archaeologist with magic artifacts and...

Tom: Yeah, people just kind of got things, you know, like...

Ryan: Right...

Tom: It didn’t really matter.

Ryan: Well, it was always an archaeologist who stumbled across some...

Tom: It was a sexy time for archaeology.

Ryan: It was.

Tom: Before World War Two...

Patrick: Yeah, I guess it was, you know, that was sort of, you know, the time period where Indiana Jones is set and then we're lots, and, you know, all the characters that, with the influence, all the, you know, true to life characters that influenced Indiana Jones.

Ryan: Like Chapman Andrews.

Patrick: Yeah, for example, were, were happening then. So maybe it really was kind of a golden age for archaeology.

Ryan: After World War Two all the characters who were all about magic suddenly became aliens or space cops, you know, like Hawkman and Green Lantern.

Patrick: Yeah, well, then you are in the golden age of science.

Ryan: Right? And the space race and all that.

Patrick: Yeah.

Tom: Magic rings from aliens instead of just magic rings.

Ryan: Yeah, but if, if it's from an alien then you get Arther C. Clark’s “Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.”

Tom: Sufficient, oh, yeah. And definitely like the the alien thing you know it.

Ryan: Mmmhmmmm.

Tom: Every, Superman was always kind of an alien, but it wasn't a big deal. And then after, as the Atomic Age sort of came, there was more of a focus on the alien part of it, you know, and it's like oh, Superman goes into space instead of beating up corrupt landlords and industrialists. He became more concerned with, like, traveling off into space. So even the characters that were still around from that time, it got, people were more interested in science. Kids were more interested in science. Schools, were probably pushing science more at the time and that this stuff was aimed at kids at the time. So it all sort of absorbed that.

Ryan: And there, there are a lot of fun stories. I haven't read as many of them as you but I'm listening to your show for a while. And it definitely seemed like it was an exciting time for kids to be reading comics.

Tom: Even though weird stuff that at the time probably seemed, I mean, there's some of the tropes of comic books like parallel worlds. You know, of course, that's debatable in science. But as we've learned more about science, there's theories now that have parallel worlds, kind of existing. You know, I hate to get into the topic of quantum physics, because then you can say anything happens and that's annoying but...

Ryan: Yeah.

1:00:00

Tom: It's, you know, stuff like that, it has, it's not become legitimate, but it's something that's kind of weirdly through the backdoor has become part of science.

Ryan: Is there anything else from those old flash comics that you've read and thought like, Oh, that's basically what we have now. And they were kind of calling it.

Tom: Not really, I mean, there's a lot of stories of him turning into a puppet, turning into cyber....

Ryan: None of those...

Tom: Yeah, none of those have come to fruition...

Ryan: No.

Tom: ...quite yet. But a lot of the villains are based on very simple concepts like the guy who freezes things and there's always like a little bit of a science fact about the, you know, freezing something is taking, you know, the molecular energy out of it is a way of, a way of thinking of freezing something which is true and actually kind of probably heady for like a six year old to think about that's the nature of freezing something.

Ryan: Yeah, I remember, I remember that Geoff Johns one shot about Captain Cold where he basically points out that you know, the Flash is all about having a excess of kinetic energy and I'm all about absolute zero where there is no kinetic energy. So if I could ever fully freeze the Flash, I would stop him dead in his tracks.

Tom: Yeah. Then he, then you take that and the sort of part would be that he wears stupid parka and calls himself Captain Cold while doing it.

Ryan: He wears those Eskimo glasses too.

Tom: Yeah, exactly. But there's that part that's like, Oh, that is actually what freezing is, so, it’s based on that.

Ryan: Has um, has boomerang technology caught up with anything that had back in the 50s or 60s.

Tom: It must have been a golden age of Boomerang throwing. The golden age of the boomerang was back then.

Ryan: He's back.

Tom: True.

Ryan: Digger.

Patrick: Haha.

Ryan: Well, yeah, I didn't think about that, Patrick.

Patrick: Um, well, the other part of the question was what comic wants to be the most sciency?

Ryan: And my response to that was kind of anything written by Warren Ellis. He's, he's kind of famous for his technobabble.

Tom: Nowadays, it's all, as, as I was saying earlier, they are shipping at the altar of Tesla.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tom: There's a lot of, a lot of, especially a lot of the guys who write stuff that are really into science. It's all sort of Teslaesque.

Ryan: Fraction straight up did a book about Tesla.

Tom: Yeah, nothing against Tesla. But that's sort of where it all seems like when people are focused on science now.

Patrick: Because if you have to pick a scientist that is bordering on sort of magicalness.

Tom: Yeah.

Patrick: That's where you go.

Ryan: Well, Tom made the joke about the Soviets discovering puppet technology, but it's kind of that thing where, you know, Tesla was a recluse and he was doing his own thing and you can, you can infer that maybe had some crazy idea and extrapolate from there. But even Matt Fraction did a book that I thought about mentioning, called The Five Fists of Science, where it's Tesla and Mark Twain teamed up to fake robot attacks on old cities to try and steal money away from Thomas Edison.

Patrick: If ever there was a noble cause.

Ryan: Yes, indeed. Yeah, so as far as modern comics, go...

Tom: There's a lot of that. If you like Tesla, there's a lot of stuff to read.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tom: You know, stuff like RASL. It's a book about parallel worlds. It's all, it's all, there's an entire issue about Tesla. So that's kind of like where the, where the sort of the Zeitgeist has gone as far as comics go.

Ryan: And the closest, the closest other thing I can come up with that actually sticks to a pretty strict science would be something like Gotham Central. Because that doesn't really go in the wacky...

Tom: Yeah.

Ryan: ...realm too often. But it's an, it's a police, procedural, so they're looking for evidence and finding clues and doing detective work and using logic and those are all sciency things.

Tom: Is it not too CSIy though? Or like they find one groove on a bullet and they're like this. It'll be incredibly easy to figure out which bullet this is from. I can't remember if they ever did anything like that.

Ryan: I don't think so.

Tom: No.

Ryan: No, because I mean, well, they had the first, the first arc was Mr. Freeze, so he doesn't use bullets. He’s like Captain Cold, he’s got his ice gun.

Tom: Yeah, when you find someone frozen in Gotham, it’s a pretty good chance that you're going to go look for Mister, Mr. Freeze.

Ryan: Right.

Patrick: When you’re going through the phone book. You see Mr. Freeze, yeah.

Ryan: He wears gloves anyway.

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: Cool well I think this has been pretty enlightening. I don't, did we, did we answer her question? Did we actually get to the crux of it?

Tom: You guys have ladies call you too?

Ryan: I know it's nice. It's not like...

Tom: I was nervous.

Ryan: ...the comics crowd.

Tom: Bunch of lonely men.

Ryan: Indeed. So where can people find you online if they want to hear more about your your opinions on comics?

Tom: They can find Tom VS The Flash on iTunes. Just search for Tom VS The Flash it's the only thing that comes up. You can go, I got a blogspot where I put some framed, well, not framed, some panels up from the comics. It's ah, tomvsflash.blogspot.com. I was on around comics all those are still online so you can find me. You can find me there. Probably talking about science. I probably got something wrong. I think we got in an argument once about Neal Adams and...

1:05:04

Ryan: Oh boy.

Tom: ... physics. Yeah, I won't get, I got so pissed off that...

Ryan: Yeah, we actually had Steve Novella on the show about 10 episodes ago.

Tom: Oh, really?

Ryan: And we mentioned the whole Neal Adams thing. And I went back and reread their online debate. So.

Tom: Ah, it was so infuriating. And then every time a convention comes around sounds like you should ask Neil Adams about the expanding Earth and I'm like, why do people fixate on, like, I, go up to someone that you want to talk about, oh, you do Batman for years and be like, you really think the earth is expanding? I rather not talk about that.

Ryan: Because it's just gonna start a fight.

Tom: It's just, yeah, we're just gonna argue.

Ryan: I mean, it's like trying to explain evolution, my grandpa. Like it's just not gonna happen. I mean, we can yell at each other or we can just talk about something else.

Tom: Exactly.

Ryan: Alright. Well, thanks so much for talking to us, Tom.

Tom: Oh, thanks for having me. I hope I didn't blow up your spot.

Ryan: I don’t...

Tom: Whatever that means...

Ryan: Yeah...

Tom: You could say that, I don’t what that means...

Patrick: You might have, is that good or bad...

Tom: I don’t know, I don’t know.

Ryan: Do we want our spot blown.

Tom: I, maybe, I we’ll see if someone writes an iTunes review saying that I blew up your spot and it's one or five stars. We'll see what happens. So just, it was nice meeting all of you and have a good rest of your evening.

Ryan: Absolutely. Look forward to talking again.

Tom: Okay. Bye, guys.

Patrick: Bye. Is Charlie still there or did we lose him?

Charlie: Yeah, I'm still here. I was just quiet for so long. I thought it'd be weirder and weirder, the later I came in. To be like that creepy guy standing next to a buddy in the bar, and then all of a sudden trying to tell a joke and everybody like, oh, you're here.

Ryan: Well on that note we should give you a chance to speak again and ask you what your what your Paleo POW was this week?

Charlie: Alright, so, my Paleo POW is a email that came in from Clave and it's quite exciting because Clave visited the Bigfoot Museum in Felton, California, which is right near Santa Cruz or the Paleo cave, if you will. And Clave writes “While vacationing in Felton, I took the opportunity to visit the CapriTaurus Bigfoot Discovery Museum. I wasn't sure if it was the museum that you and the other Paleo Pals mentioned in the past episode. So I asked the curator, and only staff member and he said there was no other Museum in the Bay Area that he knew of.” Just, I guess I'm pretty sure this guy would know too. “And it just letting you know, it's pretty cool. And you should definitely go check it out. Clave.”

Ryan: The curator is definitely the only staff member. I don't think he's raking in enough money to hire any full time staffers.

Charlie: Yeah, it's gonna say it's probably not the most profitable of industries. So might have might have, might limit the amount of museums per capita.

Ryan: But in answer to the question, yes, that is the, that is the aforementioned...

Patrick: Yeah.

Ryan: ...Bigfoot Museum that we've talked about. And...

Patrick: That's the one

Ryan: I've been there.

Charlie: that is the big foot Mecca.

Ryan: I have been there. I think Patrick's been there. We've been there separately. Charlie, have you been?

Charlie: No, unfortunately, and I'm convinced.

Ryan: Yeah. He definitely is curator and staffer. He would know. His Bigfoot...

Charlie: I’m going to let my advisor know I’m not going to be in tomorrow because I need to do some research.

Patrick: Some research.

Ryan: Exactly. Yes. Well, there is a Bigfoot on Mars so...

Patrick: Yeah, it's, it's relevant.

Ryan: It's very relevant. You could, you know, if you could find Bigfoot here, it's possible the Bigfoot, they're connected, it’s the same common ancestor or something like that. And maybe they remember the Noachian surfaces?

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, planetary scientists are always, always about this term called comparative planetology. Where if you find something on earth, and you find something similar on Mars, and you say, well, it might be the same process. And so, I think this is a clear cut example of that, and I'll be sure to present it at the next meeting.

Ryan: Of the same Bigfoot.

Charlie: Yeah.

Ryan: You’re going to present it at the next meeting. You gonna put that guy in your acknowledgments? I don't remember his name. I wish I could, I feel...

Patrick: I don’t either. We should take him a framed picture of the Bigfoot on Mars.

Ryan: Oh, he'd love it. You think he'd buy it? Or do you think he'd finally, would he finally reach his skepticism. Like, would that be it, you know?

Patrick: I just assumed...

Ryan: This is a great idea.

Patrick: I never, I never intended for him to buy it. That didn't cross my mind. But now that you bring it up, that's interesting.

Ryan: Alright, listen, Patrick. I've talked to him. He believes that Bigfoot can turn invisible, can have mass hypnosis, predates Native Americans in the United States by a couple thousand years, has evolved night vision specifically because there are white people in the United States now.

Patrick: Hmmm.

Ryan: So I'm not, I'm not...

Charlie: I'm not following that connection.

Ryan: Well, because they have to live at night, because white people live during the day, Charlie.

Patrick: Oh.

Charlie: And that's why white people are white because they live in the daytime.

Ryan: I, you're asking me to apply logic to Bigfoot evolution. But the point is, I would honestly be curious to find out whether we could finally engage his skepticism with the Bigfoot on Mars.

1:10:05

Patrick: Yeah, we should definitely print that out and frame it for him.

Ryan: That's a good idea. Because we've been wondering how to approach him.

Patrick: Yeah.

Charlie: Is he sensitive, is, is he...

Ryan: Extremely.

Patrick: He's a little sensitive.

Charlie: I was just going to say, is he wary of people taking the piss and he might see this as, as such.

Ryan: Honestly, Charlie, if, if we go, you're going to be my friend from Oregon who's seen a Bigfoot. And that's why I'm bringing you there because he'll probably, you know, I've been there before. And I told him I was from Santa Cruz, and he immediately got bristly. Like, I'm another college kid here to make fun of him. So you will be my out of town friend who's seen a Bigfoot and wants to tell him about it and he'll put it on his little map.

Patrick: Yeah, that's, that's good. Yeah, I wonder how many of those pins he's got on this map come from people who actually claim they've seen one? And how many of them are just what you're saying Ryan, want a reason to, like, talk to him for a while without him getting bristly?

Charlie: Should I come in at hickory short, shirt and suspenders and cork boots.

Ryan: Come in a Bigfoot suit for all I care. He’d probably love that. What we need to do, we need to get like a fake, we need to get a fake blurry picture of the forest or something like that. And I swear, even if we don't have a person standing in the shot somewhere he will spend hours trying to find Bigfoot in it. And probably convince himself it's there.

Charlie: Cool. Well, thanks Clave for writing in.

Ryan: Yeah. Um, Clave is also the young, the young artist who has done the zero gravity whiskey for us and the Brachiolope making science drunk again drawings. So, we thank Clave for that. He's told us he's working on a blog, so soon as that's up and running we’ll direct you all that way. But...

Patrick: Nice.

Ryan: Indeed. So Patrick, how about your Paleo POWlings?

Patrick: Well, let's see. Jeff Sykes writes to us, well, he actually posts on on Facebook. He wants to know if “you guys were supervillains what would your evil plan be?”

Ryan: Well, not to get into too many details, Jeff, but what makes you so sure this isn't my evil plan? I mean, I've gotten you to voluntarily listen to what I have to say and chances are you believe some of what I have to say. I could just be spreading my nefarious propaganda through the airwaves, the internet tubes directly into your brain with mind worms.

Patrick: Or so the creationist would have us believe.

Ryan: Yeah, Clave, how do you feel about evolution now? Are you for it? Because if so, the plan’s working. But that's my evil plan. I didn't really discuss this with you guys.

Patrick: I think mine would be to really, to make serious real profitable, really, kind of like big money from from some sort of scientific idea. Which, you know, this doesn't seem to be panning out that direction.

Ryan: Well, the problem is, it's much harder to make money off of science if you're honest.

Patrick: That's not necessarily true. If you're, if you're willing to spend your life on one particular kind of economically viable science it can be done. Like...

Ryan: Some sort of Iron Man suit.

Patrick: Well, you know, there's one, there's an example of a, of a green technology company in the Bay Area that's, that's working on making concrete that actually pulls CO2 into it as it's being made. So, you know, it's a carbon sink, rather than the typical way of making cement, which actually adds CO2 to the atmosphere.

Charlie: No way. It's, that's still gonna cost energy by the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

Patrick: It does, but it still costs energy to make the kind that puts CO2 into the atmosphere.

Charlie: So right, but it's...

Patrick: It’s better.

Charlie: ...not going to be a net CO2 sink. It's a mitigating...

Patrick: It's probably, it’s probably, yeah, sure. Okay. But, you know...

Ryan: Ah, somebody brought that up at a lab meeting with Jim. Yeah, he was not a fan. He's just flat out said it couldn't work. And recommends people leave the industry.

Patrick: Um, it can.

Charlie: We haven't even, we don't know what we're, I don't know what I'm talking about. But I am suspicious, but I haven't read their dossier yet so I can’t comment...

Patrick: The only reason I know something about it is because a similar process fouled up some chemistry I was working on. Whereby I was making basically calcium carbonate or calcium magnesium carbonate in some, in, in a material I was trying to get rid of calcium carbonate in. So you can actually precipitate this stuff, which is what he's basically doing and then putting that into his cement.

Charlie: Nice so you had like a Teflon moment.

Patrick: Yeah, kind of. Um, but in any case, you, you have to basically devote your next 10 years to that reaction and that reaction alone and perfect it and hone it. I mean, it's, it ceases to be science at some point. Like it's, there's no like learning anything. You're just, you're basically just perfecting one single thing that you already...

Charlie: Sounds more like engineering.

Patrick: Yeah.

Charlie: Engineering is still science, ah applied science, but...

Ryan: It's important but you know...

1:15:00

Charlie: The fundamental, fundamental knowledge is there, you're just making it better and better and better and more precise.

Patrick: Right. So if you're willing to do that, then you probably can make some money from science. But it ceases to be very much fun at some point.

Ryan: But is that your evil plan for the podcast or evil plan for life in general?

Patrick: That's my personal evil plan.

Ryan: Okay. What about you, Charlie, or do you have some sort of evil plan?

Charlie: Well, I haven't given this much thought because I've just been asked the question in the last minute or so. But I guess for the podcast, if everybody could listen to it and begin to take seriously their capacity for independent thought, I think that would us cause chaos across the world.

Ryan: It's pretty evil. I mean, if we’re all doing things independently. Isn't that, are you basically just saying you're a libertarian now, Charlie?

Charlie: Ah, I don't know what that exactly means but...

Ryan: It really depends on who you ask.

Charlie: Yeah, it does. That's why, I mean, I have my own interpretation of what that means. And I know everybody else does too. So I didn't want to go there. But um, yeah. I think that would be a hilarious, evil scheme. But it'd be nice if it only operated like, a few days or so because pretty soon everybody would need to step back into their roles just so the world could operate.

Ryan: Well, you know, it kind of reminds me of something Steve Novella said when he was on the show is that, you know, thinking for yourself is good, but there's not necessarily limits. But there's kind of a time and a place. Like, the example Steve gave was if his wife comes home with the front of the car all banged up, and she said she hit a deer. That's not something, that's plausible, like, it's, you know, the, you know, how much investigation does that really require. Like, you don't have to be skeptical of it and demand all this logical evidence for how she could possibly in a deer. But if she claims to have hit a UFO, then, you know, if you just believe that, then yeah, you probably require some more independent thought in your world. But if you are skeptical and yeah, so it sounds like you're just trying to increase people's attitude of thinking about things instead of just accepting what they're told.

Yeah, I guess the only place it becomes an evil or nefarious plan, I think it'd be kind of hilarious if people took it to the extreme for a few days and highly educational as well.

Ryan: What do you, what do you see happening if they did that?

Charlie: Um...

Ryan: How does, how does the world breakdown by people thinking for themselves?

Charlie: I, it’d be hard to see how any transaction of information or thought or money could occur because everybody would be entirely distrusting of the other person.

Ryan: Wikipedia would implode. All right. Well, that's kind of a, that’s kind of a...

Charlie: People should be suspicious of Wikipedia on a normal day though.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. Actually, I was talking to Ben online the other day, and he was, he was trying to pull stuff from Wikipedia. I'm like, No, Ben, trust me. I know this personally. Like, I don't want to use the argument from authority. But you're, you're making me.

Charlie: Yeah.

Patrick: Well, the other, I mean, Wikipedia is a great place to, I mean, at least provide you with a list of things to go vett on your own.

Charlie: It’s an awesome initial starting point.

Ryan: Totally, totally. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not trying to disparage Wikipedia. I'm just saying it's not, you can't always take it at face value.

Charlie: That's a good resource for talks that impact cratering movie I had in my talk today I pulled from Wikipedia.

Patrick: Nice. Nice work. Oh, to follow this, to follow this question up. I should say that the black, well the Twitter handle, theblackestsheep sort of prodded us to, or prodded me, I guess, to check into the inner workings of the Facebook fan page. And it is now open up to all international members of the Paleo Posse. So you no longer need to be a US based IP address to get in. You can come from anywhere.

Ryan: Yes, so, hopefully, if that was annoying some of you, which it very well may have been, it's, it's taken care of now.

Patrick: Fair enough. Uh, well, I guess that's the end of the Paleo POW segment huh.

Ryan: So if people want to find more about the show. You can go find show notes at sciencesortof.com but where else can they come and track us down Charlie.

Charlie: Ah, we have a Facebook page. So it's sciencesortof. We also have a Twitter account, sciencesortof.

Ryan: And that's a lot of fun, people use that. Charlie, you gonna, you gonna hop on the Twitter anytime soon?

Charlie: Yes. What do I even write? Just like I'm riding the train or I'm working on a paper or, I just...

Patrick: Yeah, it's confusing. I don't know, I don't know exactly what to write.

Charlie: I mean, Twitter was in the news, this week, Karl Rove said that he was doing a book signing at Borders in LA, and then he got harassed. So I'm worried about that sort of thing.

Ryan: Hmmm. You don't be harassed any of your signings?

Charlie: No, I'm just joking. I will get on Twitter.

Ryan: You'll figure it out.

Charlie: I'm not worried about figuring it out. I'm just...

Patrick: Wondering what to say, yeah.

Charlie: I'm a curmudgeon. I'm not a Luddite. I'm a curmudgeon.

1:20:00

Ryan: Well regardless, the three of us are on Twitter. I'm twitter.com/haupt, Patrick is twitter.com/pvwheatley and Charlie is twitter.com/charlesbarnhardt. So we're all on Twitter. We're all doing the Twitter thing. We're all on Facebook, you can friend us. We're all on the internet in almost any way you can think to interact with us. But if there's some way that's missing, and you're annoyed that you can't get in touch with us in some other social networking hub, feel free to email complain at paleopals@sciencesortof.com or any of our first names Charlie, Patrick, or Ryan @sciencesortof.com. And if you'd like us to hear your voice for a change, since we do this podcast and you're presumably listening to us, you can call 312paleopals which is 312-725-3672 and we're hopefully going to make that an even more convenient way to get in touch with us very soon. So keep in touch or keep, keep listening to hear what that added content and ease of contact is going to be.

Patrick: Right. The last thing I'll say is we're hoping to put together a, a, a quiz show for the Paleo Pals. So if you have questions you think might stump the Paleo Pals or you’re just curious about, don't email them straight to us, email them to quizmaster@sciencesortof.com. That way we won't see them until the appointed time.

Ryan: Right. And we love having questions in general. And we had some great stuff posted in the Facebook page that we're probably going to tackle before the quiz show just because we can see it and think about it. And if you want to call and leave a voicemail, just start the voicemail with this is a question, which Bailey kind of did but not enough that I stopped listening to it. So we tackled her, her voicemail this week.

Patrick: Alright, sounds good.

Charlie: Awesome.

Ryan: Yeah, wraps up another show. Thanks for listening to episode 30. We’ll ah, we'll see you next week with more science...

Charlie and Patrick: Sort of.

Ryan: Yes, the training worked. Pavlov was correct.

Patrick: Yeah.

Charlie: I didn’t get an award thoug.

Patrick: Exactly.

Ryan: Well, don't worry. I'll come by later. He'll get it.

Charlie: That sounds creepy.

Ryan: You were talking about recording on your bed earlier.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Science sort of. Our show notes are available at sciencesortof.com which will have links to all the stories we talked about today. You can follow us on twitter@twitter.com/sciencesortof. You can get in touch with us at paleopals@sciencesortof.com or on our Facebook fan page. A great way you can support the show is by subscribing to our feed on iTunes and writing a review so other people have a better chance of finding the show. And if you have a friend you think might be interested, tell them to give us a try. That's all for this week. Thanks for listening and see you next time on Science sort of.

Music

Tom: Make sure to cover the island where they kept all the black Kryptonians.

Ryan: Was there really an island where they kept all the black kryptonians?

Tom: Yep. Someone complained once that there were no black Kryptonians and they were like, oh, there's an island and then they showed...

Ryan: Wow.

Tom: Yeah, look it up it's pretty interest... I, it was not, I don’t think it was the right way to handle it.

Patrick: It wasn’t the proudest moment in Kryptonian, on Kryptonia.

Tom: No, Krypton, they weren’t forced to live on the island, but they all lived on, it's, it was, it's weird, but take a look. Look it up.

Transcriptions provided by Denny Henke of Beardyguycreative.com